Name: Sitting by the Fire with Mormons, Jensen... and Packer - Shadowproof
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Sitting by the Fire with Mormons, Jensen... and Packer - Shadowproof

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At first, I was not going to post this. I considered the meeting semi-private and was hoping that it might lead to further reconciliation. It appears however that the story &nbsp;has become quite a topic of conversation (I guess in hindsight, how could it not), so I'll add my two-cents.&nbsp;I've had an interesting 2 years since Prop 8 in many ways, but there's one that's really turning out interesting.The last year, and especially the last month, has brought a lot of hope for more understanding between the LDS church and it's gay members and the community.&nbsp;Sadly, on the heals of that talk by Elder Jensen came Packer's vitriolic words of yesterday. Yet, somehow, I'm still hopeful ( http://www.lathefamily.org/2010/10/the-mormon-religion-is-impure-and-unnatural.shtml ). I have to be, for our daughters' sake.&nbsp;Read further for my experiences… (cross-posted to my blog)&nbsp;Last year, the Stake President (similar to a position of bishop in the Catholic church, similar level of authority) of the Oakland Stake, Dean Criddle, decided that LDS members needed to be reminded what the Church doctrine toward gay and lesbian members and nonmembers should be (i.e. loving, tolerant, kind, etc). So he instituted a fireside (monthly Sunday evening meeting) in every ward (congregation) in his Stake (I think there were 11 or 12). In this fireside, he would read from a series of statements from Mormon church leaders that made it clear LDS members were not to shun, hate, etc gay and lesbian men. Then he'd have people in that ward who were dealing with homosexuality (a woman married to a gay man, a young gay man, etc, etc) speak to the congregation about their experiences. These firesides, though controversial to some, were very emotional and well received. DH and I were hearing lots of reports from friends about them and the affect they were having on people (mainly good from my perspective).&nbsp;We were then invited to the last one they were having. I refused to go because of my anger. &nbsp;I told DH that my anger and hurt from prop 8 towards the LDS church was too great and I had no desire to go whatsoever. He kept insisting and I did. I'm glad I did. I was impressed with the sincerity and love that was shown at the meeting by the members and the stake presidency. At our meeting was a woman who had been married to a gay man and told about their struggles (she still loves him and they are friends), another was a young openly gay man just back from his mission who decided to remain in the church as a celibate gay man but how painful that was for him, and another older gay man who left the church for 30 years but recently returned now that he was 60something. You can read my fuller account of that meeting here.&nbsp;Afterwards my husband, I and our good artist friend were approached by the stake president. We had a nice conversation with him. He asked me what I thought. I told him that I was impressed with his efforts to reconcile the church members with the gay community but I had one criticism, if you could call it that. I told him that all the stories were those of pain and suffering, but nothing of happy, fulfilled gay men. I said I knew why they did that in these meetings and why they possibly couldn't (it would give the message that a member could find happiness outside the gospel), but I wish he had seen those.That suggestion grew into 'dinners' where some members of the church would go to dinners at gay family homes and vice versa.Our dinner was at the end of this August. Guy, I and our daughters went to dinner at friends' (Brett Bradshaw home &nbsp;with his husband and their daughter. At the dinner was also the stake president and his wife and one of his counselors, our longtime close friend, Trevor Southey and our friend Carol Lynn Pearson. The children of some other mutual friends of ours (another gay couple with two adopted children) were also there :).The five kids had a energetic blast while we adults had a very friendly discussion that eventually became very frank and deep. Still friendly, but very honest and very emotional on all sides. Because it was a private dinner, I will not go into the conversation here (or anywhere :), but suffice it to say I believe we all grew to respect and care for each other more through our frank and open-ended discussion. At the end of the evening's discussion, we discussed how this reconciliation process would continue. Several suggestions were made when Brett mentioned that in all the years his parents and DH's parents have tried to have an audience with a 'general authority' (at-large church leaders.. kind of like a cardinal in position?), they've been unsuccessful.This is when the stake president said that one of the general authorities, Marlin Jensen, was visiting Oakland to give a talk and he invited us to come meet and talk with him (he had broached this with the authority beforehand apparently) in a morning session specifically set up to talk about the issue of the church and homosexuality. We said we'd think about it.We did and said yes. That meeting was a couple weeks ago.Each ward's bishop (pastor.. sorry for the terminology .. it's a different language) invited several people to come to the meeting at 8am specifically to talk to the general authority about this issue.There were about 80-100 people in the room, including us and our friends who had hosted the dinner. The stake president gave a few words and then people were invited to come up and talk about the issue, ask questions of the general authority, etc. We had about an hour of that. The responses and questions were mostly respectful and varied. Some were parents of young gay men, or just had friends who were gay, some were just members who felt angry by the church's actions, 1 or 2 were fully supportive of the church's actions and response (1 quoted the leviticus scripture, etc.). I got up and told the general authority that I love and respect Mormons and the LDS church, and their beliefs, but briefly told why I felt prop 8 was painful for our extended family and us, how caused rifts in the family. H I asked that when the issued comes up the leaders of the church (if they insist on fighting repeal) put as much effort in reminding members to love and tolerate their gay neighbors, as the Stake President was doing, as they do in fighting gay marriage. I told him the campaign was hateful and fear-mongering (it was) and that many members were taking the message to mean intolerance and loathing (they were). It was beneath what I was taught as a Mormon for 20 years. He nodded and said he would take that to the other leaders.Afterwards, Marlin Jensen spoke for a bit, answering questions, making comments. One of the questions posed by someone was "did the church leaders feel like they made mistakes in the prop 8 campaign and was that changing the way they were going about this in the future" his answer was 'yes' and they did make mistakes. He said their response in Argentina to gay marriage there was a result of what they learned in prop 8. I am not up on how that was different, but perhaps the response was a bit more low-key reminding the membership of the Church's stance on gay marriage, but not directing donations and volunteers? I am not sure, I'd like to get clarification on that.Much of the discussion online is about an 'apology' (see links below). At one point he was pressed for an apology for Prop 8 and the pain it's caused. His answer has been the subject of a lot of discussion on the internet, so much so that apparently it's lead to quite an issue at several sites. &nbsp;He did indeed apologize,“To the [extent that] it’s within my power to apologize, I want to tell you that I am sorry. &nbsp;I am very sorry.”My understanding of that though, in the context of the rest of his comments in that answer, is that it was an apology for the pain caused, and a personal one, not for the Church's stance and support for Prop 8. Reading those links I left below, it's a bit disappointing that what was a very excellent, even spiritual, meeting turned out online to become a huge 'to-do'. I sincerely hope that this does not detract from the momentum of what seems to be a nascent reconciliation.Elder Jensen also reiterated his own sincere belief, obviously, in the Church doctrine, and that the way to true happiness is through the gospel. He also made it quite clear that the Church's position has not changed.I expected as much, and no more. I do hope though that the Church does indeed change it's tone and tactics, and reduce the pain. And perhaps, that lesson was learned. The future will tell.Afterward, Guy and I had a short opportunity we could talk to Elder Jensen semi-privately and he thanked us for coming and for my remarks. We had a 10 minute conversation with him. Turns out he know's Guy's uncle and knows of Trevor's art. The Mormon world is a small world. He related a story that, to me, showed his sincere heart and thoughtful mind and he listened to us speak of our lives in the short time we had. It was a private conversation, so I won't go into details, but I can say that I found him to be a sincere, thoughtful, humorous and kind man. We invited him to come to our house for dinner one day, we'd love to continue the conversation. He was actually a bit taken aback by the invitation it seemed. He said he'd take us up on that offer then next time he's in town. I hope he remembers because the offer was sincere.In the stake conference meeting afterwards (which we could not attend, our daughter's school had a fund raiser), President Criddle gave a talk where he talked about opening the doors to all people. He included the story of our dinner in his talks (if he allows, I will post that talk later).As a continuation of this discussion, we will also be having dinner at the stake president's house soon, as we were invited by Dean Criddle to carry on the relationship and discussions.Also, &nbsp;the Affirmation Conference (a support organization for GLBT Mormons and former Mormons) has an all day action group run by Brett Bradshaw, and on which I will be on a panel, entitled "Stand up for Understanding." The purpose of this action group…In this Action Group, conference participants will join with representatives fromFamily Fellowship, Mormons4Marriage, Proposition Healing, LDS Reconciliation, and local LDS wards to explore how to engage in such dialogue.I believe President Criddle and others will be there. I am very much looking forward to participating.I have _no_ idea if these talks, firesides, dinners and connections will have an impact. I know that it won't change church doctrine nor the hearts and minds of some of the leaders. My hope is only that it changes the Church leaderships tone, that at least they work hard next time to keep the campaign from running fear-mongering ads and that they continually remind members of their _christian_ duty to love (I went to several LDS meetings on prop 8.. they did the opposite in several cases).&nbsp;Shadowproof is a financially independent news organization. All of our funding comes from small donations made by readers like you.We use your donations to hire freelance writers and cover our operating costs. Monthly membership subscriptions give us the stability we need to make plans while ensuring our organization does not depend on grants or major funders. If you like what you read, support our writers with a donation today.&nbsp;

At first, I was not going to post this. I considered the meeting semi-private and was hoping that it might lead to further reconciliation. It appears however that the story &nbsp;has become quite a topic of conversation (I guess in hindsight, how could it not), so I'll add my two-cents.&nbsp;I've had an interesting 2 years since Prop 8 in many ways, but there's one that's really turning out interesting.The last year, and especially the last month, has brought a lot of hope for more understanding between the LDS church and it's gay members and the community.&nbsp;Sadly, on the heals of that...

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Sitting by the Fire with Mormons, Jensen... and Packer - Shadowproof

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