Name: “Hand Them a S--t Pie So Gross They Will Choke on It”: Michael Cohen Predicts Trump’s Post-Presidency Legal Drama
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“Hand Them a S--t Pie So Gross They Will Choke on It”: Michael Cohen Predicts Trump’s Post-Presidency Legal Drama

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Nearly three and a half years ago, I sat across from Michael Cohen in a bustling coffee shop in the Hamptons, and over dry toast and egg whites, he told me, unequivocally and unprovoked, that he for Donald Trump. He felt like a member of the Trump family, or, at least that’s what he wanted to convey to a reporter taking down his every word. So much has changed since then, least of all that I’d now kill to feel safe in a busy greasy spoon. Cohen took a figurative bullet for his former boss in to federal crimes that included a hush money payment made to Stormy Daniels in the run-up to the 2016 presidential election. He spent many hours in front of Congress, participating in state and federal investigations involving the Trump Organization and campaign, and more than a year in federal prison, before he was to home confinement earlier this year.&nbsp;Through it all, Cohen gave the press singular insight into his former boss. He understood Trump’s brain, his actions, his family, his business from its guts, and was able to both explain where we were at any given moment and predict what would happen next. On last week’s episode of Inside the Hive, he did just that: gave a detailed assessment of the president’s most recent behaviors and a road map for what he believes is to come.&nbsp;Below is an edited transcript of our conversation.Vanity Fair: I’ve relied on you so much in my reporting on Donald Trump and his family.&nbsp;Professionally, you lived inside his brain for so many years. That’s what led you to be a prognosticator. In February 2019, you said that Trump at the end of his term. I think we can all agree that you were right. What made you think that would be the case?Michael Cohen: I know Donald Trump. I know him intimately in terms of his brain. I can tell you, it’s a very scary&nbsp;place to live, because I have become anesthetized to the narcissism that exists only within the two ears of Donald Trump. It is filled with 100% pure narcissism. I watched how he was behaving over the course of the two years since he took office. Although he was still solid within his base, he never actually grew his base as a president. Had he just done an infrastructure bill, he would have doubled his base and won this election easily. But instead, the very first thing he wanted to put forth was a . While I voiced my objection to it in the White House, his response was, well, Don’t worry; we’ll try to get it right the next time. So I&nbsp;saw that he wasn’t growing the base, and knowing Donald Trump the way that I do, knowing that he was going to lose the reelection, I knew that Donald Trump would never peacefully turn over the White House, that there would never be a peaceful transition of power, and it’s one of the things that I had said to the late, great, honorable , that the only reason that I’m here, standing before you all, is because I do not believe that under a Donald Trump presidency there will be a peaceful transition of power, and that scared me.What made you believe that?Well I was just watching his actions. The same way I knew that he was going to win in 2016. I remember sitting with Chris Cuomo on CNN, and I said to him, Keep laughing, keep making the statements that you want. In another four months you’re going to be calling him president. I made a prediction. The same way I predicted he was going lose this [election]. Actually, I made a $10,000 bet that he would lose, and I just received the money so now I’m going to donate it all to charity. $15,000.Do you think he believes there has been fraud in this election and that’s why he lost, or is that just public posturing?I need you to think of what Trump is doing as no different than if you were watching The Apprentice. This is all a reality show. He knows he lost the election. He knows it. But the problem is he has an incredibly fragile ego and his fragile ego will not allow him to acknowledge that he is a loser, that he lost the election to Joe Biden. “I’m Donald Fucking Trump. I can’t lose the election to Joe Biden.” This is a cash grab. When you finish a job, you’re always thinking about how to reinvent yourself. That’s what Donald Trump is doing right now. He knows that his next saga of his story is really going to be predicated around a Trump news network. It’s why he’s fighting with Fox every day. He’s looking to steal their base. Because with his social media platform of 90 million followers, he knows that of that 90 million, 20 million are die-hard Trump fans. He could and they would be behind him 100%. From them, he just wants $4.99 a month. And for that $4.99 a month, you get to listen to all the bullshit and all the far-right-wing conspiracies that Donald Trump can dream up. That’s what he’s going to sell you. That’s $100 million a month. $1.2 billion a year. That’s going to pay for the gas in his 757.That doesn’t work if you’re a loser; you can’t sell being a loser for $4.99 a month.There are 20 million Americans who are so entrenched in the cult of Donald Trump, as I once was. He has a spell over these people. Why? I don’t know.… It’s going to be an infomercial. It’s going to be one fucking infomercial after another. He will do it, and there are 20 million stupid people out there who are willing to part with their money, in the middle of a pandemic, to give it to him. To me, I’m blown away at the lack of intellect in some of these people. I’m not talking about people who are uneducated. I’m talking about people who are educated too.It just goes to show you how much hurt there must be in this country, that people are willing to buy into it. You fell for the bill of goods too. Why did you fall for it?Most PopularHow did someone like myself fall into it? My falling into it goes back to 1987, when I was a junior in college. I received as a gift The Art of the Deal. I was intrigued by it because I saw many similarities in myself. His was just on a much bigger scale. When I was in college, I was importing gray market cars. I was bringing in Mercedes and Porsches. I always tried to think big. Then, of course, moving back to New York, I started practicing law. I did well in the field, and then I had the opportunity to go into the transportation field and I built a large company that I sold and then I was basically retired. And then Trump asked me to work for him…. I had invested in a Trump property in the year 2000 so I saw the power of the brand. A lot of people say things, which are very negative, that I knew I was working for a bad guy. Well, yes. But in 2007, how many people would have rejected the offer to work for Donald Trump? The Apprentice was the number one show on television. There was the Miss Universe pageant. There were buildings going up all over the place. I’m a deal junkie when it comes to real estate. I owned my own real estate throughout the city. To be a deal junkie for the biggest deal junkie, he’s hypnotic. For me, I understand that celebrity appeal. If you’ve ever been around a celebrity, and walking down the street with them, the hundreds of people with cameras. Flashes going everywhere. Even if they’re not taking pictures of you, the proximity, to be in that VIP room, was intoxicating for me. I clearly was missing something in my life. It had nothing to do with financial [need]. It was emotional. What he’s doing is he’s appealing to the far-right base. Especially if they’re racist. They like Trump’s rhetoric because Trump likes the status quo of white power.It explains why his base has stuck with him, but it also explains why so many people around him have been intoxicated by him and why so many have gotten in legal trouble. We’re now at a point where Rudy Giuliani looks like he’s in real trouble. Steve Bannon looks like he’s in real trouble. Is Trump going to just pardon everyone?No. Let me again dig deep into the mentality of Donald Trump. Donald Trump cares for no one or anything except for himself. That includes his own children. Let’s talk about the . Will Donald Trump pardon these individuals, which he certainly has the power to do? No. Because the first thing he’s evaluating when deciding who to pardon and who not to is: What’s in it for me? What you have to understand is that if he pardons Jared Kushner, and it would be considered a pre-pardon because Jared hasn’t been accused of any crimes yet, Jared loses his Fifth Amendment right against self incrimination. That means that Jared could be compelled to testify and the questions that will be asked of him will undoubtedly be about Donald Trump. He’s now thinking, Wait a minute, if I give this guy a pass to keep his ass out of prison, he may be putting mine in. I’m not so sure he’s going to be doing that. He has to really evaluate who could pose problems for him, knowing that the attorney general has the right to his taxes and so does the D.A. in New York, and there will be a multitude of cases coming out of that situation. So the question becomes: if I give someone a pardon, how can that hurt me rather than help me?Most PopularThat’s some real popcorn shit. Do you think he will step down a day early so Mike Pence can pardon him?No. That’s not going to happen. First of all, Donald Trump will never step down. Let’s go back to his fragile ego. That means he was forced to step down by small, simple people. That tattoos the stamp of loser to his forehead.You brought up the multitude of investigations that lie ahead for him. You have spent dozens and dozens of hours cooperating with investigators from the Mueller team, the Southern District of New York, Congress, state attorneys general. Are you still assisting with anything, and what do you think the kinds of charges could be down the line?That’s a great question, one that I can partially answer. I have invested more hours and more dollars than I care to even include. As Letitia James, our attorney general [of New York], stated, her entire investigation stems from my hearings as well as my testimony to them. I don’t want to discuss with you what the sum and substance of my conversations with them were. That wouldn’t be right to jeopardize the potential litigation with him, the children, the Trump Organization. But the one thing that I can tell you about the people I met, about the attorney general or the district attorney’s people, is that they’re very well prepared. They are locked and loaded with a very specific task: to bring justice to the crimes they have been investigating and that they know are legitimate.&nbsp;You’re also engaged with civil lawsuits with the Trump Organization, stemming from the funds you’ve outlaid—millions of dollars—to defend yourself. A lot of it had to with actions you took at the direction of your former boss. Where does that stand?I have not paid out the millions. I owe millions. There are firms that are still owed money. Everything that I did, I did at the direction of, and for the benefit of, Donald J. Trump. What bothers me the most is the parts that had nothing to do with the Trump Organization [that] I’m not asking for him to reimburse me for. Let’s talk about Stormy Daniels, Stephanie Clifford. When Donald Trump found out she was going to be on 60 Minutes, he called me up and said, How is this possible? We have an NDA. And it’s a very heavy-handed NDA. He said, I want you to file an injunction preventing her from appearing on 60 Minutes. Then it became a civil lawsuit that Stephanie Clifford brought against Trump and where we said the affair never happened. What benefit do I have out of this? The case is proceeding. We’ve already deposed general counsel. We just deposed Eric Trump the other day. He basically deferred every question to the general counsel. It’s a shit show of a proportion that I’ve never seen. But the nice thing is that I know how they play the game. If you’re willing to stick it out, like the A.G. did in , you will hand them a shit pie so gross they will choke on it. Do you know how stupid Trump is on this one? ... You stick it out all the way to the end and then you take them to trial, which I intend to do. And then I’m going to sue them for damages. I’m going to sue them for everything, which is what the lawsuit is all about. With Trump, you can’t give up. If you show that first sign of weakness, they’ll take advantage.Most PopularThat you know the strategy from the inside…Know it? I fucking wrote it.&nbsp;The fact that you’re recalling these conversations with Trump makes me think about how you were in touch and talked so often. Do you think you’ll ever talk to him again?I can’t. I can’t. As you know, the damage that he’s caused me in order to protect his own ass is so significant. He took away the thing that I cherish the most: my family’s happiness. The money I lost, it’s sickening how much, but I don’t care about that. I’ll make it back somehow. And if I can’t, I’ll live with whatever I possibly can. He destroyed my family’s happiness. The sadness and loneliness that existed when I was up in Otisville [federal prison], I could never forgive. There was no reason for him to do what he did. He did it to protect himself, at my expense, and without even letting me know.You asked an interesting question when we were in that diner in the Hamptons. You asked me if I would take a bullet for the president. And I would have. And had he told me that this is what I needed to do, at least we could have had a conversation about it and my family’s happiness wouldn’t have been destroyed. Everything with him is always underhanded and it’s dirty. He held me responsible for his dirty deeds. The court held me responsible for Donald Trump’s dirty deeds. For that, I could never, ever forgive him.&nbsp;I didn’t even have to ask you if you’d take a bullet. You volunteered it. The conversation we had, which I will never forget, was so fascinating because you were in a place where you were, at least to a reporter, wanting to present the fact that you were undoubtedly loyal because that’s the thing he values most. I remember I asked if you really thought you’d get that back, if you really believed that loyalty was a two-way street with him. And you said you did. But I could tell that, in the back of your brain, you doubted it.I don’t think I ever said it was a two-way street. What I said to you was that Donald Trump is like First Avenue here in New York. It’s one way. However, I was on the same one-way street as Don [Jr.], Ivanka, and Eric, where I believed that there was not zero percent reciprocity, but I had at least the same 5% that his children had. Of course, I learned that 5% is equal to zero in Donald Trump’s eyes.&nbsp;In your book, you wrote that if something didn’t work out for Trump, he’d drop the whole project immediately. If that’s the case, the politics thing didn’t work out for him. Do you think he’s going to jump right back in, or is that just a marketing thing to get subscribers to pay another $4.99 a month?A combination of both. He is desperate for the $4.99 per month. His company is in trouble. When the IRS finds that he owes hundreds of millions in taxes, and that’s without the fraud penalty that they attach to it—and believe me, I know all about that—his financial standing is going to be decimated. He has to sell the few assets that he has and he’ll be stuck with the non-performing assets. And for Trump, that’s the worst, to take away the billionaire status. The answer to that is yes. However, he is going to counterprogram the Biden administration. It’s so disgraceful, as an American. Someone like Barack Obama, who Trump denigrated, still had the decency, the humility, the patriotism to sit in that front row as we handed over the administration in a peaceful transition of power. Donald Trump doesn’t have any humility or decency. So what’s he going to do? He’s going to counterprogram the same way he did when he had a fight with the second debate. It’s because he was completely unprepared. So instead, . They raised money, and it wasn’t [until] a reporter asked which organizations they’d donated to that they actually sending out checks.&nbsp;Most PopularThis interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.More Great Stories From Vanity Fair&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;— Mary Trump Thinks Her Uncle’s Are Just Beginning— There’s a Who Don’t Believe It’s Real— Doug Band: Confessions of a — Will Spring for a Postpresidential Fox Gig?— Ivanka Desperately Tries to on Her Way Out— After Remaking CNN and Antagonizing Trump, — With , Is the FDA Ready to Inspect Where They’re Made?— From the Archive: Probing the of Randy Quaid and His Wife, Evi— Not a subscriber? to receive full access to VF.com and the complete online archive now. is a national correspondent at Vanity Fair and a cohost of the podcast **. She is the best-selling author of Born Trump and a chronicler of characters from Washington to Manhattan to Hollywood (and sometimes other places too—you never know where characters will reveal... The freshest-and most essential-updates from Washington, Wall Street, and Silicon Valley.

Nearly three and a half years ago, I sat across from Michael Cohen in a bustling coffee shop in the Hamptons, and over dry toast and egg whites, he told me, unequivocally and unprovoked, that he for Donald Trump. He felt like a member of the Trump family, or, at least that’s what he wanted to convey to a reporter taking down his every word. So much has changed since then, least of all that I’d now kill to feel safe in a busy greasy spoon. Cohen took a figurative bullet for his former boss in to federal crimes that included a hush money payment made to Stormy Daniels in the run-up to the...

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Vanity Fair is a monthly magazine of popular culture, fashion, and current affairs published by Condé Nast in the United States.  The first version of Vanity Fair was published from 1913 to 1936. The imprint was revived in 1983 and currently includes five international editions of the magazine. As of 2018, the Editor-in-Chief is Radhika Jones.

“Hand Them a S--t Pie So Gross They Will Choke on It”: Michael Cohen Predicts Trump’s Post-Presidency Legal Drama

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